Problem w/Long Recording Times in AVCHD

[jimw]

Anyone out there shoot events that require 1 hour and longer continuous rec times like Weddings, Band Concerts etc and use SONY CAMS that record AVCHD on Flash cards? The problem is that every 4GB of info Sony puts a mark that creates a hiccup with the audio & video when inputing into the Bogart machines. I believe this is the "FAT 32" thing. It isn't a problem if you use the Sony Content Management Utility disc that they supply but you can't use it with the Cassies. The Sony software stitches the video & audio together so there are no "dropouts". This is a problem if you own a MAC since it's for PC ONLY. Complicating the problem is when you shoot with 3 or 4 camcorders and are using Quad Cam. You have to split every 12 or 17 minutes depending on what MPS you are using (24mps) or (17mps). I let Dennis know about this but I believe he thought I was having a problem downloading to the S4100 from a Sony HDR-AX 2000 which I am not. So I have been waiting for somebody out there to ask this question but have yet to see anybody address this issue.
Could the Cassie Tech team incorporate the Sony Software into our system so it can work around this issue. It is a hassel when you film concerts that last 2 hours non stop.
Putting the footage into a PC with the Sony software and then exporting to the Cassie seems so tedious and redundant!! Do you guys have problems with Panasonic or Canon, JVC cammys
with this 4GB problem or is it a "Sony thing."
If anyone has any ideas, I am open for suggestions.
Thanks
Jim Wendt

[Volker]

Hello Jim,

same problem here in PAL land (I am also a Sony user).
After downloading you can add all the single 17 min. parts into the storyboard. Then add a Color Bar clip of 2 frame length between all those 17 min. sequnces. Create a scene out of this storyboard. Now you have a clip you can work with in Quadcam.
Audio will be missing during the gaps that you have filled with the Color bar. But video will play in synch with the other cameras you have used.

Another idea: Use an analogue Y/C cable to download the footage in one go into the Cassie. Quality will no longer be HD but audio and video remain in synch for hours...

It is already bed time here in Germany... We can talk tomorrow.

Volker

[LouBruno]

I no longer have the SONY UTILITY as I went on to PANASONIC. I was under the impression that once stitched, the scenes can then be SAVED to a folder and then copied to a FLASH and be imported to BOGART.

Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue with your personal experience.

[jimw]

Thanks Guys,
Volker, that's a good suggestion, but it does get complicated when I use 4 camcorders or more to
shoot bands and each camcorder has the spilt at different points depending on the action or movement
AVCHD is a varible bit rate so the points happen at different times. Have a good night's sleep.

Lou, I heard about that work around but you need a PC to use the Sony software, I use a MAC. Also, I was
wondering if other people using Pan, JVC & Canon camcorders have this problem or is it only Sony.
I even tried to split the footage in the Sony camcorder around the break point to fool the Cassie, but that didn't
work either, the break point was still there. You lose about a 1/2 second of audio even though you can play it back in
the camcorder and it is there. The Cassie doesn't stitch the footage together. The real question is does Macro Systems
know about this problem and can they fix it. Using Quadcam saves so much time on projects like this, it would be a
shame that we have to work around this problem.
Thanks Guys,
Jim Wendt

[JBrooks]

This is an AVCHD issue of coarse however, I use the Sony PMW EX1 which utilizes the MPEG 2 codec in an MP4 wrapper in the FAT format so when I record it breaks up the clip files however, when I import them directly into Bogart, they are placed on the storyboard and it does not drop a single frame. The files stich together seamlessly without audio sync issues.

AVCHD codec basesd cameras has it's issues.

Joel Brooks
MIT Video
http://www.mitvideoproductions.com

[Volker]

Hello Jim,

I shot a concert with 2 AVCHD cameras, 1 HDV camera and one GoPro camera.
I ran into the same problems you have described above when I wanted to edit the footage with QuadCam.

The (my) solution was to input video and audio from the background camera (1st AVCHD camera) via the analogue cables. So I had one video stream without any interruptions and with the original audio that I wanted to keep in this production.
I downloaded the video of the GoPro via analogue cables as well because the system did not want to input these big files from the GoPro. It loaded in the footage but then it was not in the scene bin. Strange. But loading in via analogue cables was ok.
The footage from the other AVCHD camera was loaded in via USB. The segments were automatically splitted. But if you want to have video and audio in synch with the background camera you have to add another 2 frame clip between each single sequence of the splitted parts of that AVCHD camera (as described in my first e-mail). If you do so, you can use the entire footage with QuadCam and edit in real time. If not, you are an unhappy editor

The latest PAL Bogart update will fix this bug of the missing 2-frames when importing the splitted segments from the AVCHD media, as far as I know. Plus there is a QuadCam update that can be used to edit 4 HD streams now.

So long,
Volker

[jimw]

Thanks again guys,
Joel, I realize that your Sony PMW EX1 is using the MPEG 2 format, but I sell these AVCHD camcorders at our store and the majority of these are using the MPEG 4 .264 AVCHD compression which is very popular. Try demonstrating a Cassie with Quadcam and these camcorders and then you have to explain the work arounds that you guys have suggested, it doesn't leave a good first impression on new customers about the Cassies. I also would like to hear if anyone out there using Canon, Panasonic & JVC camcorders have this same problem or not. Sony is the most popular selling camcorder. Also the audio isn't out of sync it just isn't there for about a 1/2 second between these spilts in the footage.

Volker, I will try your suggestion but I could have sworn that there was almost 14 frames of audio lost when I first shot a Fashion show. I did have to bring in the audio with RCA cables which isn't much of a problem, but if you shoot with 1 camcorder how do you recover the glitch in the video? I sure hope that the newest OS version will address this problem but we are still waiting for Arabesk 5 to come out here in the states. If you say that I only need 2 frames of video I will try it. The thing is I want to edit in HD and not have to bring in anything with SVHS or RCA cables because of this problem.
Thanks for all the suggestions!
Jim Wendt

[JBrooks]

Jim,

Your right, it can be frustrating using QuadCam in HD however, Im sure MS is very aware of this issue & hopefully, address it and the other ACVHD issues in a Bogart update soon. This codec is very complex for all NLE editing systems. Overall, it handles it pretty good though.

Joel

[Volker]

Jim,
you are right. 2 frames of video are missing but a few more frames of audio are missing "in the gaps".
So you have to make sure that at least one (background) camera is recording without interruption - this camera's audio or video+audio stream has to be loaded in one go (via analogue cables for example).

Volker

[jimw]

Volker,
I shot a musical with 3 Sony AX2000's(SD Cards) and 1 Sony FX1000 (DV Tape) for the very reason you brought up. I wanted an uninterrupted audio file so I took the sound from the house mixer and inputed it into the Sony AX2000 (voices only) and used the Sony FX1000 for the ambient live sound of the theater (voices and band). Since they only wanted a std-def DVD I shot it all in Std-def which worked out well with QuadCam, no problems at all. The breaks in the SD cards were about 34 minutes using Std-DEf. It's funny that the "old" standby tape based camcorder was the most reliable, most people think that tape is "dead". It saved my butt! No worries about losing audio.
Joel,
I sure hope the new updates will address this glitch. It will be great to do Full HD in QuadCam and not have problems and hopefully Arabesk 5 will be out soon so we can have menus and chapters in HD. I decided to jump in the conversations because I didn't see anyone else mention this problem before and I know there are guys out there shooting Weddings & events with multiple cams that require long continuous recording.
You are also right about the Cassie handling AVCHD pretty good compared to other NLE systems. A few of my buddies have dropped FCP and have gone to Premiere for various reasons. They feel Apple doesn't support FCP like they used to. Most single camcorder HD projects I do, have worked out great on my S4100. The Blu-ray and AVCHD DVD's that are created look great and play fine on my Sony BDP-S 580 player. The rendering of HD projects is a bitch though. Reminds me of the old original Cassie days when it took 6 hours for 1hour of video to render. We got spoiled when the 2nd generation Cassie came out and everything worked so much faster. Oh well we will see what the future brings.
It was nice hearing from you guys and I hope other people with other Camcorders chip in on this conversation. Love Syl Renaud's comments on shooting with the Canon 5D DSLR's. He's right, the work arounds are worth it if you get that incredible "LOOK" from the cameras, but you do need multiple cameras, lenses and shooters. I couldn't see myself running around with 3 or 4 cams shooting solo. But I have shot several events with guys shooting with the Canon 5D camera and my Sony cammys and they seem to like it mixed together. I wonder what the people they shoot for see? They claim they don't notice the difference. Wow! Interesting that Syl also hasn't done an HD project all the way.
I do think the SD DVD looks great if upscaled but the Blu-ray version does look better at least with the LCD monitors that I use. (Sony XBR's)
Thanks again for all your comments!
Jim